Cos he gets linked on the fan sites page and then on his home site, it lists the prices of his tutorage o.0 just wondering if that was legal and all =/ I personally dont have anything against it; I have nothing bad to say about people that spend money to learn mobiles more completely ;)
Why wouldn't it be legal?
not sure, I guess its not as bad as linking to ebay, but theyre promoting someone else's business, not their site. I'm not sure how the outcome would be if gb-hq suddenly changed to a site that centered around making money... anyways, Im just expecting some kind of erratic response from GIS =/
when money is involved with the internet, theres danger =-o
on a lighter note, has anybody taken his lessons?? are they worth it? is he reallly a "level ten" armour, nak, raon, mage, trico and grub user? just mastering like 2 of these at one time is a bit hard =/ I know cr0nik posted sumthin on testimonials over there, but which "package" would be most worth it, btw the site is http://www.ewebstudio.net/lord/ (http://www.ewebstudio.net/lord/)
ADMIN EDIT: Rizzano: Verbal warning for double posting.
he's put a lot of effort into making tutorials and such. there's a bunch of charts he has made and instructions on how to use them, as well as practice sessions. i haven't taken any lessons... only played against him. i believe he will try to teach the formulaic method first, then help them feel the shots quickly and accurately.
... and it's another resource available to gunbound players. i'm not understanding you... i really don't see anything wrong with it.
rofl thats so lame
If you want to become good, practice kids!
no doubt it will be pretty good training. But does one really need it and pay for it? No doubt quite a few will. Some will say it's only a few bucks. So be it then.
What's the difference between selling items/accs on ebay and paying for gunbound lessons? Oh well.. ;)
The difference is that when someone buy an account on ebay, and then afterwards the seller tries to change the password to take the account back. The buyer then complains to softnyx and creates lots of support nightmare for them. Softnyx could care less that you buy stuff on ebay, they just don't wanna deal with the extra problems that come with it.
Assuming cbchui doesn't just take your money and run away, it wouldn't give softnyx any problems.
i find that really funny for some reason. xD
from my guild members who already know people from lordsTM, i hear they've got a pretty good reputation, but i still find the idea of charging actual money really amusing. :D
and yeah, it's kinda like buying an account off ebay, except not as stupid of an idea. at least with cbchui you're actually learning something.
cr0nik: that's totally backward for me... i felt my shots first, but i don't think i could ever adapt to the methodical way of playing gb XD
i'm not against the idea (it doesn't give the people paying to learn any unfair advantages over me or anything o_O) but like 0o0o0o0 said... does one really need to be actually trained for the game? it's not like you're going to use gb skills irl or something...
*snort* imagine if you paid to have someone teach you cs. *imagines all the camping lessons*
[edit] speaking of "how good are the lessons" he has a "testimonials" link on that page that leads to a thread in their forum about the lessons.
alright, I read his testimonials, and really have to say the idea of having lessons would be tempting for some....
however, having lessons would also take away a LARGE chunk of the fun in gunbound, at least the fun that I have, and that I am sure many others share
My type of fun is getting better through your own playing, realizing your limits, and improving them yourself, without help, just your own solid time spent to get better
Lessons would drastically reduce the time spent on a players "improvement phase," but then, what would I do then? I see stat hores out there who only like to win, who just play games against noobs, and just... well win, all they do is just play games to win them over and over, and honestly, that really doesnt seem like fun..
If your into the idea of getting ahead quickly and becoming a great player ahead of the gang, then by all means the tutorial is an amazing idea for you
As for me, and any people out there that share my belief (there is someone out there right???? :huh: ) , I like to stick Gunbound to casual play, improving yourself comes along with casual play too, only it takes longer... And it may sound rediculous to some, but I honestly dont mind losing, as long as I have fun, I am happy with that
Once again I am not trying to sway anyone toward or away from these tutorials, they do sound like an awesome idea, but it isn't something I would go for
00Sniper, you have been verbally warned for double posting.
I do it for free, but only for Turtle. And I'm considered only a Level 8.5 player.
Whats all this level stuff?
haha, the level thing's just a not-too-serious personal rating system someone came up with. It works exactly like you probably would guess it does... on a scale of 1-10, player X is rated ....
Cbchui should indeed be called a level 10 armor, I've never seen his other mobiles but I've seen him play a few games and he doesn't miss.
I wouldn't pay for lessons though because I know there's a quality guide already available on the internet. I also think it's MUCH harder to explain things in the tiny little 4-lines-long chat box at the top of the screen. A good way to learn is to read a guide or post until you understand it, then in practice try to apply it with someone you know already understands it. If you miss, you can explain what formula you tried to use, what wind adjustment, etc, then ask the person you're playing with why you missed. They can point out flaws in the way you adjusted for wind or whatever.
I guess the only problem with my theory of "just read a quality guide for free" is that you cannot always tell at a glance what's a good guide and what's just bullshit and fluff...
PS: I think the instructor must now be called LordCBChui... he sold his dragon account 'cbchui' recently. My friend says it was for 400 usd.
There is a reason you are not allowed to sell items on Ebay, the pixels are softnyx's property, and they can do what ever they want with them, they are hosted on their server. Selling knowledge is perfectly fine, thats hosted on the persons brain, and softnyx couldnt stop you.
he sold his account? Ugh, I hate people trying to make money off gunbound, when gunbound is free anyway.
These 'tutoring' lessons are just a quick way to burn cash for somebody so lazy that they dont want to read guides...
All the information on every hard mobile is in this exact forum, so I dont see what the fuss is.
cbchui is better at Trico than mauvecow ever was. He's the best Raon user too. I'm not kidding. I don't know about his quality as an instructor, but I do know that he IS the best player on GIS, no questions asked. I honestly didn't think his pay for lessons idea would work but apparently he's had a few people already...
Also he's not interfering with softnyx's business in any way...
The way I see it he won't become a millionaire like the 24/7 ebay scumbags... 2 hours of lessons for $10 or so isn't going to feed his family :P
Quotecbchui is better at Trico than mauvecow ever was.
That's because people horrendously overrate my ability. Although if I had as much time to devote to it as cbchui had.. .. And, also, played with my calculator instead of doing all this crap in my head because I think mathing out -everything- in realtime is boring as freaking hell... That's really the main reason I miss so much, I just wing it. :P
I've never played him so I can't judge. And that being said, I don't see what's so wrong with letting him charge for it. Big deal, Softnyx doesn't hurt from it. If I remember there were some top ranking players on Warcraft who would charge for even a game with them. Nothing wrong with it at all.
Whats wrong with paying fewer than 10 US dollars to get top class training and be better than most of the pple ? but seriously i don't need these kind of lessons cuz i have many experienced players in the guild i'm in ;)
Quoteis he reallly a "level ten" armour, nak, raon, mage, trico and grub user?
What the hell is a level 10 this or a level 9 that.......
Also I dont have respect for someone's skills considering they calculate it out...shows he isnt in the game for fun...just to show the fuck off....
You know, it's all fine and dandy that he never misses, but what fun is that? Like Dissolute said, it's hard to have respect for a guy who just calculates his shots. It's alot more fun to play, not calculate :)
Quotecbchui is better at Trico than mauvecow ever was. He's the best Raon user too. I'm not kidding. I don't know about his quality as an instructor, but I do know that he IS the best player on GIS, no questions asked.
o.0 on his site he has some listings of 1v1, doesnt seem all that from these battles =/
1v1 History ( From today onwards i will vs pros and all players and will post results here )
Lord™ Cbchui vs Xiao™ Xiaoxu3
3 : 1 2th June
Lord™ cbchui vs Feel Fetched
2:3 3th June
Lord™ cbchui vs Chris943
3:0 3th June
Lord™ cbchui vs AngelsofGree
2:3 3th June
mebbe he just had a bad day or sumthin :ph34r:
bleah 2 ppl diss calculating, I have to step in.
How is guessing and missing somehow more skilled or fun than calculating? Please explain this. I can't imagine missing being fun.
I also can't imagine there's fun in completely turning off your mental powers and letting 'muscle memory' handle every single shot. This game is already pretty mindless compared even to first person shooters or real time strategy. You want to take out the only thinking in the entire game.
Anyway I don't mean to gripe but I want to get this off my chest:
calc is not cheap, cheating, or mindless. It is difficult and frequently ends up failing. I know several players who can feel as well as anyone who calcs, and some of the top rankers say the never use any formula.
It is just a choice on how to shoot.
also, it is silly to say ppl who calc dunno how to have fun or are playing the game for the wrong reason. Cbchui would not play for months and months and months if he was not having fun. Then the game is like an unpaid job. He is having fun, trust me. I know I have fun calcing shots.
Also, it isn't really anyone else's business what his motivations are for playing. You only need to worry about your motivations, you cannot control and should not care about why others are playing. There is no shame in it if he truly plays only to win and be the best, and not just to have fun.
Lastly to disrespect him and say you cannot respect people who calc is pretty lame. You think 0% of cbchui's shots use feel? He uses both. To say you don't respect calc is saying "I only respect people who limit themselves and make winning harder by refusing to learn things"... you might as well give all your respect to someone who shoots every time with his eyes closed or refuses to use the same angle twice. Not everyone HAS to use the same aiming method as you to be worth respecting, ok?
It's more a matter of "he's increasing his abilities artifically through external means! THAT'S WRONG!" Most people aren't going to respect that much, really. *I* find it boring and uninteresting, but I don't have too much of a problem with it. I mean, it's just an extension of zero wind shooting, which just about everyone does anyway.
Frankly the solution here is not to complain about it but to complain at Softnyx for allowing technique to be superior to any form of strategizing the game has due to the amount of information they give you.
Quoteof "he's increasing his abilities artifically through external means! THAT'S WRONG!" Most people aren't going to respect that much, really.
Woh, woh, you make it sound like an athlete using steroids or something. Artificially, pfft. It's more comparable to a chess player studying openings. You can play chess without doing that, but the people who do it tend to win more. What form of improving your skill couldn't be labeled 'artificial'? Reading a guide is artificial improvement. Practice sessions with a buddy is. Learning from cbchui is. It could all be called artificial if it's not strictly something you learned from personal playing experience in real games. What about self-developed formulas, is that 'artificially increasing your skill'?
As for "most people aren't going to respect that much" - that generalization doesn't seem based on fact at all. The formula-using player who brought up all this discussion... cbchui.... gets more respect than anyone else in gunbound from what I've seen. There's a whole pinned thread on the lord forums devoted to kissing cbchui's ass. People who don't respect him aren't in the majority. Your sentence should read "a few people aren't going to respect that much".
Sniper: 10/17 games vs other dragons. Shrug. That's probably 15/17 vs average players. 1v1 is funny anyway...
Thanks for assuming I wasn't just summing up the general belief in a slightly humorous fashion. Sigh. Your analogy is flawed, too. Chess openings are not the entire game. They are but a small part of it: By making ridiculous quantities of tables and/or using a calculator to solve for the coordinates (Making something to do that would be trivial with the knowledge I have now, I doubt it is any different over there), allows you to do it the whole damned game. This is because while chess has a level of strategy, GB does not. Especially if the games tend to be of the easy, mechanical accuracy-only variety which 'pros' love.
The view on it all depends on the mindset involved. People who don't think the game should be brought down to a mechanical level like that are likely going to feel that way... And in my experience this -is- the majority. Although not by a huge margin. It's all about whether you determine skill to be mechanical, technical accuracy to more freeform strategy. Aiming is the former: And using something other than what's in your noggin can be likened to not, ah, playing fair to some people. *shrug* Not saying that I agree with that, but it is entirely possible for one to go on an aimbot rant about it.
Myself, I'm way more interested in any sort of strategical arguments this game has than any sort of "Oh look, I can hit every shot" technical skill. Since Softnyx has apparently decided that the game is going to be all about the latter at higher levels of play, it's harder to be interested in it - or in the way such players play.
Whatever. This discussion direction is entirely pointless. No more thread derailing, mmkay?
Why pay for lessons anyways.
experience has to be well....experienced.
you cant become good just by having someone (no matter how good) teach you a few aiming systems and tips for gameplay.
It will help, definently, but the best way to get good is to pick a bot to learn, and keep playing till you learn it. B)
the calculation vs estimation debate has been going for quite some time.
I dont see a definent problem with either.
adv. and dis-adv. are on both sides, it doesnt seem logical to argue about which has an advantage, when we all use both.
It's better to discuss interesting offtopic things than just say fuck it and not discuss anything :D
----------------
Thanks for assuming I wasn't just summing up the general belief in a slightly humorous fashion.
Maybe it was too dry for me, I dunno. Or my response was influenced by the SURGE OF IRRITATION factor, when 1 annoying sentence (the 'most people can't respect formula' bit) colors your entire reply. Sorry.
Re chess vs gunbound:
UNAIDED gunbound has the same limitations as UNAIDED chess.
It's an important distinction to make. Just as there are only so many openings a human can possibly memorize (and situations outside of the openings will be determined by 'skill')... there are only so many windcharts and wind factors and power levels a human can keep stored in their head. Could you use a program or some other uber-formula to reduce the game to zero-challenge, zero-skill? So far I've only seen one guy who can do that out of the thousands of games I've played (DrDeuce if anyone's interested).
The rest of us humans have a limited repertoire of formulas that apply to a limited range of situations, just like a chess player only knows X moves in Y openings.
You might argue "yeah but the formulas they have now cover up to 1.5 screens and there are windcharts for every possible distance for every bot". However formula shots are nowhere near that perfect for 1 simple reason: Height differentials. There's no calc for them, it's all based on visualizing the shot. Probably the reason metamine's so popular is that it nearly removes height differences from the equation, and that's probably why you resent 'Those Games' so much. The calculations on that map are a little too easy, doing the same thing on sea of hero or metropolis is a different ball of wax.
The view on it all depends on the mindset involved. People who don't think the game should be brought down to a mechanical level like that are likely going to feel that way...And in my experience this -is- the majority
Find a hole in this please:
1. 90% of the people playing gunbound are noobs.
2. Almost all noobs are impressed when you make a over-half-screen dual on your first try, especially with a high angle.
3. When I explain that this is a formula and they say "wow you can figure out the angle and stuff from a formula? How?" they are expressing a willingness to bring the game 'down' (SUBJECTIVE WTF) to a mechanical level by learning the formulas.
I won't say 90% of the people I play ask for formulas on how to make shots, but I will say that if the subject comes up...if someone DOES bother to ask how I made the shot, and I answer "a formula"... they always want to know what it is and how to calculate it. Always. ESPECIALLY for something like a turtle SS or a long boomer backshot. Maybe others don't have the same experience.
Myself, I'm way more interested in any sort of strategical arguments this game has than any sort of "Oh look, I can hit every shot" technical skill.
You're in the wrong game man, even a first person kill-em-all deathmatch in quake-type games has more strategy than this game. It IS all about aim. And even in quake, which has some interesting tactics, many pros use the phrase "Aim is king". You're going to be forever frustrated by this game I think. Grab an RTS or something. The last time I heard a strategy that actually was strategic was when angelsofgree posted a little skip-turn trick that could turn around a losing 1v1 game in a specific situation. There isn't a lot of depth in the game, and in some ways formulas offer a way to breathe depth into an otherwise mindless game. If I were still shooting at angle 50 all day and using feel for all my shots, I'd probably have quit by now, I like the mental workout of finding an accurate calc. Ironically, I might BE a better player if I had been using the same angle straight through from chick to red wand, my feel would be godly. But I'd be bored.
Meh, fine, I'll bite. Bear in mind I've had very little sleep in the past four days and insomnia is taking its toll on my argumentative abilities which is probably why all these miscommunications are occuring. ;)
I don't buy the argument that there's no algorithm for height differentials. In fact I don't find them difficult at all; It's a matter of knowing how it works that will enable you to hit reliably given them. It is one of my reasons for hating Meta Mine, but far from the whole reason, and even then I don't consider it a huge part. The fun fact is that height differentials affect how much effect the horizontal wind will have, and anyone who knows this should not have a great deal of difficulty in compensating. Or even mathing it out, I have a few tricks up my sleeve as to how that works.
Yeah, okay, most GB players are noobs and see that far. I'll concede the point here. I still don't have to like it though. I have not met too many intelligible people who are terribly fond of that style of play, and these are the sorts of people I had the most exposure to. They'll do it, mind you, but only because there isn't much more choice.
I still don't buy the chess vs gunbound argument. It's a matter of how far you have to go where strategy becomes technical perfection. In Chess you can bring the game to a technical level to the point that even computers can play at a skill level of even the best players. Of course this takes supercomputers and a huge chunk of processing time, but still. Human players can't even pretend to match this.
In Gunbound, it's far simpler: I could hack up something in the matter of about half a day which could do everything a player does around aim, and it'd take less than a second for it to process. (Believe it or not in my notes around here is how to plot a shot's path to within +/- 2 pixels, regardless of wind. I ain't sharin' though. There's enough of this 'aim is god' crap around.)
For it to handle delay and items to perfection would be trickier, but... The entire point of the items in the game is to add some variety to make it more difficult to -be- this perfect. Delay control is the 'meat' of the game as far as I am concerned, with items sprucing up how it's done. This is because you can't -always- know what your opponent will do, and you can't -always- compensate properly based on it. It becomes a matter of guesswork, and hoping to predict your opponent's moves. This is the interesting, strategical part of the game, the mind games so to speak, which most 'pros' so desire removed.
Because, the thing is, the simpler you boil the game down to, the more aiming matters and the more mechanical AND PREDICTABLE the game becomes. It requires players to play perfectly, because there is only one way to play and only way to react in any given situation. THIS is the main reason I hate Solo Meta Dual/Dual+ Only with a passion. The gameplay is so simplistic that there is no REAL strategy, only a feeling that you are playing something deeper than you are.
As far as the depth thing goes.. I would not have gone past even battle axe level if it didn't have -some-. Anyone who knows me knows I'm a picky bastard about gaming, to boot.(Most RTS games suck strategically as far as I'm concerned. They're all about clicking really damned fast and learning basic techniques. Any real wargamer'd scoff at most of them.) It's just that once you start reaching the point where missing becomes nonexistent all the factors that exist to make it interesting go away. I still say there should be a limit to what Gunbound tells you, information-wise, to prevent absolutely perfect algorithmic play. Not to mention prevent item disabling so as to make the delay game harder...
what is this "skip a turn" trick that angelsofgree posted?
i couldnt find it with search...
Quote...my feel would be godly...
Sorry, I just had to quote this, I understand what feel is (so don't think I am a
complete moron, but well, my mind was a bit in the gutter.... nvm)
Just wanted to bring this forum down a notch (looks like it is going to turn into a flame war...)
Anyhoo, as input from a non pro, non noob (i hope)... I definatly think both methods of playing are acceptable, it is whatever your most comftorable with... If you enjoy playing feel (
possibly missing frequently and losing a good amount, like me) then by all means play feel, if you enjoy the idea of doing impressive shots and raping your victam, then do calculations
I am not against either method, and I believe that both methods seem great, it ALL depends on how
you want to play, and what
your motives are in the world of GB
Calc has helped me on stages like adium root at long range.Beside a situation like that I NEVER use angle under 60 at long range.The angle at long range for me is 70 so calc really helps me then.Also when u play turtle.The need to be SO precise is irritating when high angling turtle.I used to and alwayas had to adjust power by abit and ALWAYS keep an eye on wind.With 2.4 method I just choose an angle I think will work and 2.4 power.Then if I miss I adjust.It has helped alot from long range when high angling with turtle since the need for accuracy is so darn high.Mostly though I play by feel but the couple last days when playing turtle the 2.4 method was so darn helpful I will prob go to it whenever I can now. :D
Quotewhat is this "skip a turn" trick that angelsofgree posted?
i couldnt find it with search...
Im also interested in this post o.0, maybe that was how he got the upper hand on cbchui in 1v1 =-o
Quotewhat is this "skip a turn" trick that angelsofgree posted?
i couldnt find it with search...
Select one item on your turn, lets say a dual, then press f8. Then on your next turn select another item, lets say lightning in this case, and fire. Once you fire, both items will be activiated, so you will shoot of a dual + lightning combo at the same time. Its good to show off, but has a shitload of delay.
QuoteQuotewhat is this "skip a turn" trick that angelsofgree posted?
i couldnt find it with search...
Select one item on your turn, lets say a dual, then press f8. Then on your next turn select another item, lets say lightning in this case, and fire. Once you fire, both items will be activiated, so you will shoot of a dual + lightning combo at the same time. Its good to show off, but has a shitload of delay.
Oh... I knew about that, but never knew it under angel's discovery o.0 The only real applications of that would be what? when a hurricane spawns between both of you? o.0 cos normally, it would be much more effective to use items seperately
QuoteI don't buy the argument that there's no algorithm for height differentials. In fact I don't find them difficult at all; It's a matter of knowing how it works that will enable you to hit reliably given them.
There surely is math to plot it, but it's beyond my ken, and for you to say height differential is no problem assumes a 90% hit rate on first try in no wind. Is it fair to say you do that? Or do you mean no problem like you can do it half-the-time-first-try-but-you-wouldn't-dual.
In Gunbound, it's far simpler: I could hack up something in the matter of about half a day which could do everything a player does around aim, and it'd take less than a second for it to process. You still miss my point. Of COURSE a computer or even a graphing calc can be used to find the perfect shot every time. But there's a limit to how much a person can do UNAIDED. If it isn't already clear, I am of COURSE completely against any sort of computer-assisted hack to calc the angle and power. So the gunbound vs chess analogy was:
Humans are limited as to how many openings they can memorize to map out a game vs any given opponent, and humans are limited to how many formulas they can memorize to map out any given map position/height differential/enemy position/in-the-case-of-trico-and-turtleSS-also-airtime.
There will always be strategy in chess for when the game falls outside of the book opening, and there will always be manual, uncalculated aiming for situations in gunbound that fall outside of the humanly-memorizable formulas.
QuoteDelay control is the 'meat' of the game as far as I am concerned, with items sprucing up how it's done.
hrm, that's kinda weird. It seems like you're grasping for depth that isn't there, I find delay to be the simplest, most automatic part of the game. I could probably type out the flowchart for playing delay as efficiently as possible but you probably already know it. I don't really find delay has decisions involved, there is merely a correct response and an incorrect one, and the correct one is generally a nobrainer. If you're perhaps discussing guessing whether or not to commit to dual based on strategically guessing whether the enemy might gangbang you or not... well those solo metamine dual only maps do teach you that aspect of the game, in fact that's kind of all it boils down to, the decision to play delay or just dual before your predicted demise.
Don't think I'm a fan of that game mode btw, I think solo is garbage for exactly that reason. Two enemies right next to you? You can predict exactly what shot you will use and what shot they will use and you have to just sigh and live with the knowledge that you're going to be slotting for the next 20 minutes. Score adds a TON of strategic depth because dying with a dual isn't always ideal, killing the enemy just because you can isn't always ideal, etc.
It's just that once you start reaching the point where missing becomes nonexistent all the factors that exist to make it interesting go away. Wait, does the interest go away because YOU can make every shot, or do you mean because every player on the map can make every shot? It reminds me of the guy saying he won't DT because it makes the game less fun. Less fun for who? For the victim? Who cares :D
It's the same with formula shooting - you might not have any fun getting raped from 1.5 screens away but the guy shooting is having an absolute blast.
Anyway do you REALLY play anyone who can make every shot using strictly mental calcs, without some special assistance? I don't think I do. It's safe to say 99% of gunbound players can't even come close to that. I can't see why anyone would say I hate formula playing and I want it to go away if so few ppl know how to do it, and of those who know only a fraction can do it effectively (which means not perfectly, just well. Nobody formula shots perfectly because all the formulas floating around out there are inherently imperfect). Why hate on a technique that is only making a handful of gunbound's players better? Especially since the keyword is better, not flawless or invincible.
QuoteSelect one item on your turn, lets say a dual, then press f8. .
... err lol you shouldn't guess if you don't know what I'm referring to :X
It's not that trick, the trick is a subtle delay saving trick:
the enemy just used a dual or something, and you know if you shot 1 next your delay is going to lose by 30... you're on item lock so you cannot kill him, but the next turn item lock goes away. You have 1/4th life and the enemy has 1/2.
If you F8 instead of firing a shot 1, and do it very fast, then your delay can barely win. The delay for F8's a bit smaller than the delay for shot 1. You can then get to the item unlocked weather effect, dual, and kill.. and win.
yay!
A rare situation but if someone does it on purpose it's super nice.
This topic has gotten way off track, and I'm pretty sure the main purpose of the topic has been served, so locked. Feel free to create a new topic to discuss whatever's going on here.