cbchui allowed to sell lessons?

[Zim]

he sold his account? Ugh, I hate people trying to make money off gunbound, when gunbound is free anyway.

These 'tutoring' lessons are just a quick way to burn cash for somebody so lazy that they dont want to read guides...

All the information on every hard mobile is in this exact forum, so I dont see what the fuss is.

[kiwibonga]

cbchui is better at Trico than mauvecow ever was. He's the best Raon user too. I'm not kidding. I don't know about his quality as an instructor, but I do know that he IS the best player on GIS, no questions asked. I honestly didn't think his pay for lessons idea would work but apparently he's had a few people already...

Also he's not interfering with softnyx's business in any way...

The way I see it he won't become a millionaire like the 24/7 ebay scumbags... 2 hours of lessons for $10 or so isn't going to feed his family

[mauvecow]

cbchui is better at Trico than mauvecow ever was.

That's because people horrendously overrate my ability. Although if I had as much time to devote to it as cbchui had.. .. And, also, played with my calculator instead of doing all this crap in my head because I think mathing out -everything- in realtime is boring as freaking hell... That's really the main reason I miss so much, I just wing it. :P

I've never played him so I can't judge. And that being said, I don't see what's so wrong with letting him charge for it. Big deal, Softnyx doesn't hurt from it. If I remember there were some top ranking players on Warcraft who would charge for even a game with them. Nothing wrong with it at all.

[SmellyBeans]

Whats wrong with paying fewer than 10 US dollars to get top class training and be better than most of the pple ? but seriously i don't need these kind of lessons cuz i have many experienced players in the guild i'm in  

[Dissolute]

is he reallly a "level ten" armour, nak, raon, mage, trico and grub user?

What the hell is a level 10 this or a level 9 that.......

Also I dont have respect for someone's skills considering they calculate it out...shows he isnt in the game for fun...just to show the fuck off....

[masterofme]

You know, it's all fine and dandy that he never misses, but what fun is that? Like Dissolute said, it's hard to have respect for a guy who just calculates his shots. It's alot more fun to play, not calculate

[00Sniper]

cbchui is better at Trico than mauvecow ever was. He's the best Raon user too. I'm not kidding. I don't know about his quality as an instructor, but I do know that he IS the best player on GIS, no questions asked.

o.0 on his site he has some listings of 1v1, doesnt seem all that from these battles =/

1v1 History ( From today onwards i will vs pros and all players and will post results here )

Lord™ Cbchui vs Xiao™ Xiaoxu3
3 : 1 2th June

Lord™ cbchui vs Feel Fetched
2:3 3th June

Lord™ cbchui vs Chris943
3:0 3th June

Lord™ cbchui vs AngelsofGree
2:3 3th June

mebbe he just had a bad day or sumthin  :ph34r:  

[creedo]

bleah 2 ppl diss calculating, I have to step in.

How is guessing and missing somehow more skilled or fun than calculating?  Please explain this.  I can't imagine missing being fun.
I also can't imagine there's fun in completely turning off your mental powers and letting 'muscle memory' handle every single shot.  This game is already pretty mindless compared even to first person shooters or real time strategy.  You want to take out the only thinking in the entire game.

Anyway I don't mean to gripe but I want to get this off my chest:

calc is not cheap, cheating, or mindless.  It is difficult and frequently ends up failing.   I know several players who can feel as well as anyone who calcs, and some of the top rankers say the never use any formula.
It is just a choice on how to shoot.

also, it is silly to say ppl who calc dunno how to have fun or are playing the game for the wrong reason.  Cbchui would not play for months and months and months if he was not having fun.  Then the game is like an unpaid job.   He is having fun, trust me.  I know I have fun calcing shots.
Also,  it isn't really anyone else's business what his motivations are for playing.  You only need to worry about your motivations, you cannot control and should not care about why others are playing.  There is no shame in it if he truly plays only to win and be the best, and not just to have fun.  

Lastly to disrespect him and say you cannot respect people who calc is pretty lame.  You think 0% of cbchui's shots use feel?  He uses both.  To say you don't respect calc is saying "I only respect people who limit themselves and make winning harder by refusing to learn things"... you might as well give all your respect to someone who shoots every time with his eyes closed or refuses to use the same angle twice.  Not everyone HAS to use the same aiming method as you to be worth respecting, ok?

[mauvecow]

It's more a matter of "he's increasing his abilities artifically through external means! THAT'S WRONG!" Most people aren't going to respect that much, really. *I* find it boring and uninteresting, but I don't have too much of a problem with it. I mean, it's just an extension of zero wind shooting, which just about everyone does anyway.

Frankly the solution here is not to complain about it but to complain at Softnyx for allowing technique to be superior to any form of strategizing the game has due to the amount of information they give you.

[creedo]

of "he's increasing his abilities artifically through external means! THAT'S WRONG!" Most people aren't going to respect that much, really.

Woh, woh, you make it sound like an athlete using steroids or something.  Artificially, pfft.  It's more comparable to a chess player studying openings.  You can play chess without doing that, but the people who do it tend to win more.  What form of improving your skill couldn't be labeled 'artificial'?  Reading a guide is artificial improvement.  Practice sessions with a buddy is.  Learning from cbchui is.  It could all be called artificial if it's not strictly something you learned from personal playing experience in real games.  What about self-developed formulas, is that 'artificially increasing your skill'?

As for "most people aren't going to respect that much" - that generalization doesn't seem based on fact at all.  The formula-using player who brought up all this discussion... cbchui.... gets more respect than anyone else in gunbound from what I've seen.  There's a whole pinned thread on the lord forums devoted to kissing cbchui's ass.  People who don't respect him aren't in the majority.  Your sentence should read "a few people aren't going to respect that much".

Sniper: 10/17 games vs other dragons.  Shrug.  That's probably 15/17 vs average players.  1v1 is funny anyway...

[mauvecow]

Thanks for assuming I wasn't just summing up the general belief in a slightly humorous fashion. Sigh. Your analogy is flawed, too. Chess openings are not the entire game. They are but a small part of it: By making ridiculous quantities of tables and/or using a calculator to solve for the coordinates (Making something to do that would be trivial with the knowledge I have now, I doubt it is any different over there), allows you to do it the whole damned game. This is because while chess has a level of strategy, GB does not. Especially if the games tend to be of the easy, mechanical accuracy-only variety which 'pros' love.

The view on it all depends on the mindset involved. People who don't think the game should be brought down to a mechanical level like that are likely going to feel that way... And in my experience this -is- the majority. Although not by a huge margin. It's all about whether you determine skill to be mechanical, technical accuracy  to more freeform strategy. Aiming is the former: And using something other than what's in your noggin can be likened to not, ah, playing fair to some people. *shrug* Not saying that I agree with that, but it is entirely possible for one to go on an aimbot rant about it.

Myself, I'm way more interested in any sort of strategical arguments this game has than any sort of "Oh look, I can hit every shot" technical skill. Since Softnyx has apparently decided that the game is going to be all about the latter at higher levels of play, it's harder to be interested in it - or in the way such players play.

Whatever. This discussion direction is entirely pointless. No more thread derailing, mmkay?

[Bravodor]

Why pay for lessons anyways.
experience has to be well....experienced.
you cant become good just by having someone (no matter how good) teach you a few aiming systems and tips for gameplay.
It will help, definently, but the best way to get good is to pick a bot to learn, and keep playing till you learn it.  B)


the calculation vs estimation debate has been going for quite some time.
I dont see a definent problem with either.
adv. and dis-adv. are on both sides, it doesnt seem logical to argue about which has an advantage, when we all use both.

[creedo]

It's better to discuss interesting offtopic things than just say fuck it and not discuss anything  
----------------
Thanks for assuming I wasn't just summing up the general belief in a slightly humorous fashion.

Maybe it was too dry for me, I dunno.  Or my response was influenced by the SURGE OF IRRITATION factor, when 1 annoying sentence (the 'most people can't respect formula' bit) colors your entire reply.  Sorry.  

Re chess vs gunbound:
UNAIDED gunbound has the same limitations as UNAIDED chess.
It's an important distinction to make.  Just as there are only so many openings a human can possibly memorize (and situations outside of the openings will be determined by 'skill')... there are only so many windcharts and wind factors and power levels a human can keep stored in their head.  Could you use a program or some other uber-formula to reduce the game to zero-challenge, zero-skill?  So far I've only seen one guy who can do that out of the thousands of games I've played (DrDeuce if anyone's interested).  
The rest of us humans have a limited repertoire of formulas that apply to a limited range of situations,  just like a chess player only knows X moves in Y openings.

You might argue "yeah but the formulas they have now cover up to 1.5 screens and there are windcharts for every possible distance for every bot".  However formula shots are nowhere near that perfect for 1 simple reason:  Height differentials.  There's no calc for them, it's all based on visualizing the shot.  Probably the reason metamine's so popular is that it nearly removes height differences from the equation, and that's probably why you resent 'Those Games' so much.  The calculations on that map are a little too easy, doing the same thing on sea of hero or metropolis is a different ball of wax.

The view on it all depends on the mindset involved. People who don't think the game should be brought down to a mechanical level like that are likely going to feel that way...And in my experience this -is- the majority

Find a hole in this please:
1. 90% of the people playing gunbound are noobs.
2. Almost all noobs are impressed when you make a over-half-screen dual on your first try, especially with a high angle.
3. When I explain that this is a formula and they say "wow you can figure out the angle and stuff from a formula?  How?"  they are expressing a willingness to bring the game 'down' (SUBJECTIVE WTF)  to a mechanical level by learning the formulas.  

I won't say 90% of the people I play ask for formulas on how to make shots, but I will say that if the subject comes up...if someone DOES bother to ask how I made the shot, and I answer "a formula"... they always want to know what it is and how to calculate it.  Always.  ESPECIALLY for something like a turtle SS or a long boomer backshot.  Maybe others don't have the same experience.

Myself, I'm way more interested in any sort of strategical arguments this game has than any sort of "Oh look, I can hit every shot" technical skill.

You're in the wrong game man, even a first person kill-em-all deathmatch in quake-type games has more strategy than this game.  It IS all about aim.  And even in quake,  which has some interesting tactics, many pros use the phrase "Aim is king".  You're going to be forever frustrated by this game I think.  Grab an RTS or something.  The last time I heard a strategy that actually was strategic was when angelsofgree posted a little skip-turn trick that could turn around a losing 1v1 game in a specific situation.  There isn't a lot of depth in the game, and in some ways formulas offer a way to breathe depth into an otherwise mindless game.  If I were still shooting at angle 50 all day and using feel for all my shots, I'd probably have quit by now, I like the mental workout of finding an accurate calc.  Ironically, I might BE a better player if I had been using the same angle straight through from chick to red wand, my feel would be godly.  But I'd be bored.

[mauvecow]

Meh, fine, I'll bite. Bear in mind I've had very little sleep in the past four days and insomnia is taking its toll on my argumentative abilities which is probably why all these miscommunications are occuring. ;)

I don't buy the argument that there's no algorithm for height differentials. In fact I don't find them difficult at all; It's a matter of knowing how it works that will enable you to hit reliably given them. It is one of my reasons for hating Meta Mine, but far from the whole reason, and even then I don't consider it a huge part. The fun fact is that height differentials affect how much effect the horizontal wind will have, and anyone who knows this should not have a great deal of difficulty in compensating. Or even mathing it out, I have a few tricks up my sleeve as to how that works.

Yeah, okay, most GB players are noobs and see that far. I'll concede the point here. I still don't have to like it though. I have not met too many intelligible people who are terribly fond of that style of play, and these are the sorts of people I had the most exposure to. They'll do it, mind you, but only because there isn't much more choice.

I still don't buy the chess vs gunbound argument. It's a matter of how far you have to go where strategy becomes technical perfection. In Chess you can bring  the game to a technical level to the point that even computers can play at a skill level of even the best players. Of course this takes supercomputers and a huge chunk of processing time, but still. Human players can't even pretend to match this.

In Gunbound, it's far simpler: I could hack up something in the matter of about half a day which could do everything a player does around aim, and it'd take less than a second for it to process. (Believe it or not in my notes around here is how to plot a shot's path to within +/- 2 pixels, regardless of wind. I ain't sharin' though. There's enough of this 'aim is god' crap around.)

For it to handle delay and items to perfection would be trickier, but... The entire point of the items in the game is to add some variety to make it more difficult to -be- this perfect. Delay control is the 'meat' of the game as far as I am concerned, with items sprucing up how it's done. This is because you can't -always- know what your opponent will do, and you can't -always- compensate properly based on it. It becomes a matter of guesswork, and hoping to predict your opponent's moves. This is the interesting, strategical part of the game, the mind games so to speak, which most 'pros' so desire removed.

Because, the thing is, the simpler you boil the game down to, the more aiming matters and the more mechanical AND PREDICTABLE the game becomes. It requires players to play perfectly, because there is only one way to play and only way to react in any given situation. THIS is the main reason I hate Solo Meta Dual/Dual+ Only with a passion. The gameplay is so simplistic that there is no REAL strategy, only a feeling that you are playing something deeper than you are.

As far as the depth thing goes.. I would not have gone past even battle axe level if it didn't have -some-. Anyone who knows me knows I'm a picky bastard about gaming, to boot.(Most RTS games suck strategically as far as I'm concerned. They're all about clicking really damned fast and learning basic techniques. Any real wargamer'd scoff at most of them.) It's just that once you start reaching the point where missing becomes nonexistent all the factors that exist to make it interesting go away. I still say there should be a limit to what Gunbound tells you, information-wise, to prevent absolutely perfect algorithmic play. Not to mention prevent item disabling so as to make the delay game harder...

[el6uapo]

what is this "skip a turn" trick that angelsofgree posted?
i couldnt find it with search...