1 v 1 Digging versus Lightning

[dcx1287]

This is fair, but then again you have a guarenteed lose if he digs very deep...so like whats the point anyway. As if he's going to get more gold or sumthin... mite as well just jump off or sumcrap then kick him. If u bother fighting him then u jus waste upon ur average hit n wateva as well as ur time where u can get more gold n gp, instead of wasting it on a digging cock.

If it's a guaranteed loss, how is it fair?  And when I talk about "digging," I am referring to digging deep down into the ground such that eventually the nak/raon/bigfoot/JD/Mage/whatever will have a shot on me with a huge heap of land over to cover.

i think u might wana change the map to cozy tower, i am not sure which side, the 1 botters always use.
and pack yrself a tele =/ and some heals lol
i think this will really fuked him up XD gl

I agree cozy tower is fairly effective againt digging, in that it makes it an even match instead of a broken one.  The other map that contains the small, circular heaps of land in a row that are all over the abyss is also effective against digging, in that, once again, it makes it a fair, even match instead of a broken one.


I think the following setup may be effective against diggers:  

Tag mode, lightning (my favorite bot, so I will pick this anyway) and Ice with 6 bandaids, in avatar off.

A tag Ice with 6 bandaids could potentially take down the full health primary bot and half health secondary, given that the opponent does not pack any heals and you can avoid their duals/dual pluses.  This is simply shifting the burden of actually aiming well onto the opponent, since to counter the heals he will actually need to aim properly with his duals/dual pluses, while I'll just receive an automatic reward.

[RoyalJeff]

There are a few things you can do against a digger (nak, raon, bigfoot, etc)

1.  Play tag and get a massive digger like raon or bigfoot as the main bot.  Your tag bot being lightning is hidden, so let's say the nak, won't dig because he doesn't know there is a lightning to hide from.  From here you can screw around with him until you feel like attacking with lightning.  Pack heals for your lightning tag.
2.  When going digger vs. digger, especially nak, try to encase him in a hole so if he tries to break loose, he will shoot himself.  If you keep on doing this, eventually he will cripple himself so much you can easily dual on thor and finish.
3.  Against an underground nak, simply run far away.  Always pack a tele against a nak.  When you are far away, block off the front and back so he cannot hit you (use the digger).  Try not to play 1v1 solo lightning vs nak.  Tag has a higher chance of you playing counter-attack on him.  (Hide the lightning so he won't run away!)

At the end... if you screwed up, you can always be a sore loser and kick him... =P

[TonksLT]

Best advice, don't use lightning.  

[Satoshi]

That's not really specific enough.  

Don't use lightning in _1v1_ games.

[dcx1287]

Best advice, don't use lightning.

Don't use lightning in _1v1_ games. 

Yeah I just hate being hampered because of a broken tactic.  I have used lightning only since I was a silver battle axe.  I use him for avatar on and off.  In fact, I still have not even tried out kalsiddon or J.Frog yet.  

It's just annoying that I can't use him in 1 v 1 simply because the other person may want to exploit a weakness that inevitably leads to a stupidly broken matchup.  

I do not mind fighting naks/etc. 1 v 1 as lightning; a lot of times I have games where they do not dig and it is an actual shooting contest.  And, in those cases, I win some and lose some depending on who has the better shot, who can adapt to constantly changing winds better.  I feel these games are the fairest.  


Thankfully I do not play 1 v 1s anymore.  To be perfectly honest, I played a lot of 1 v 1s in thor's hammer to gain gp/gold quickly while at the same time further developing my feel.  With the GP nerf in 1 v 1s, I now concentrate on multiplayer about 95% of the time, which I must say has been somewhat of a blessing since I now have made a lot of new friends this way.  

However, the digging problem certainly hampers me in a tournament setting.  I guess I'll just have to deal with it.  

l may try out mage since mage appears to have a similar shot as lightning.  Can somebody confirm/deny this?  I am more or less a feel user with lightning who very rarely will apply certain general formulas.  Having that in mind, what bot will feel very similar to lightning?  

Thanks.

EDIT:  Thank you RoyalJeff for your tips.  I will be sure to try them out in gameplay when I get the chance.

[Satoshi]

Lightning has a "light" shot type, whereas Mage has the "medium" shot type (along with A. Sate, JD, Grub, and Ice.. I think)

Though, if you use Mage a game or two, you'll probably adapt to the shot type quickly and ultimately it won't make that much of a difference.

Mage has no splash damage, other than the SS, which is fairly similar to Lightning's, unless the weather causes it to be.  Also, since Mage fires two seperate shots (in the shot 2) that entwine around one another, it will behave differently than Lightning in some situations.

Bear that in mind.

[Zannion]

Oh, i really think thats fair.....since they angle rape almost any bot very well and that additional splash damage is cheap..(talk about a small radius without a way to escape and in addition to that...an SS)......I always tell those lightning users....much which are aimbotters by the way(aren't satisfied with an easy splash hit).....that they've already put me in a hole...and I'm just continuing what they were doing ^_^ Though I still play fair at first just to know if my enemy is an aimbot...If he is, the next round I'm sure he'll quit bwahahahhaa.
Summary: Lightning gives me headaches and I give lightnings headaches

And .....against a Nak...yes dig in your front...prevention method...though i really can't see a way you can defeat an underground foe....unless you can SS hack ;P

Ultimate answer is play TAG with lightning as main and boomer as sub. Why?.....just to be sure if he ever tunnels...use boomer, hit your front(actually preventing him to shot 2 and a preparation for...)then tunnel deeper than him(cuz, im sure hes pretty shallow digging with shot 1)...in such a way his shot 2 cannot hit and use your boomers numerous angle advantage wisely and hell.....SHOTGUN!...well this is against NAK...and don't ever forget he has a tag as well.....
And dont forget the heals!!

Easier method...pick adiumroot...though he can still dig in...when you expose him...he's prone to bunging. Bigfoots are your enemies here though....still lightnings are strong againts bigfoots so, the final verdict?
Don't forget ur teleports!!

[dcx1287]

Oh, i really think thats fair.....since they angle rape almost any bot very well and that additional splash damage is cheap..(talk about a small radius without a way to escape and in addition to that...an SS)......I always tell those lightning users....much which are aimbotters by the way(aren't satisfied with an easy splash hit).....that they've already put me in a hole...and I'm just continuing what they were doing ^_^ Though I still play fair at first just to know if my enemy is an aimbot...If he is, the next round I'm sure he'll quit bwahahahhaa.
Summary: Lightning gives me headaches and I give lightnings headaches

Angle raping and digging against lightning are not even comparable.  If a lightning angle rapes you, you can still teleport away and find another shot and actually hit your opponent.  It's totally stupid to imply that lightning's angle rape on bots is on the same level as digging against lightning.

And splash damage is cheap?  I agree in avatar on it gives lightning a distinctive advantage.  But even "cheap splash damage" isn't enough to counter digging.   And, in avatar off, without splash damage lightning would be absolutely worthless.  

For avatar On, assuming fair play is in tact (no digging vs lightning) the "cheapest" bot currently is Frog because of its super-broken SS coupled with its low delay.  How many times have you seen this-->  A frog user on the other team is last to go.  Their opponent (a person on your team) is maybe an inch and a half away.  The frog shot 1/2s them, putting them in a slight hole, outdelays everybody, and then SS's to kill.  

Another example is a 3 v 3 in metamine.  My friend is last in line and is sitting in that "ditch" between one of the humps in metamine and the central trapezoidal structure (upon which the frog user is sitting).  My friend is wearing golden armour, Chief hair, Robot X, and red phoenix.  

The frog user taps an SS and kills him in one hit.  Given the avatar protection on my friend, I don't think it's reasonable by any means to have a shot strong enough that can kill that type of suit in one hit, granted the frog user was wearing a strong attack/bunge suit.  

I'll try out using boomer as a tag bot, but there may be some problems with it.  Yes I can cut off his shot 2 on me, and at this point nak is literally encased by a wall of ground.  However, I'll still have to hit him somehow.  If i do Boomer UHAs that will, in turn, open up a high angle shot for the nak, and then I'm at a health disadvantage.  

And dont forget the heals

What if the nak user packs heals as well?  This matchup is still to his advantage life-wise.  

What I'm worried about is when I do come in and try to hit him with Boomer, won't that open up a pathway for him to hit me as well?  If not, can you perhaps describe a scenario (wind, positioning, etc.) in which this is not the case?  If such a scenario exists, I'll try to mimick that scenario in real time play to see if it works.


I do like this idea:

1. Play tag and get a massive digger like raon or bigfoot as the main bot. Your tag bot being lightning is hidden, so let's say the nak, won't dig because he doesn't know there is a lightning to hide from. From here you can screw around with him until you feel like attacking with lightning. Pack heals for your lightning tag.

EDIT:  

Lightning has a "light" shot type, whereas Mage has the "medium" shot type (along with A. Sate, JD, Grub, and Ice.. I think)

Though, if you use Mage a game or two, you'll probably adapt to the shot type quickly and ultimately it won't make that much of a difference.

Thanks for the tip, I'll keep that in mind when trying out Mage.  

[Spaceering]

lightning is best for jewel.  if you want to play lightning in other types just dont use it vs a nak, or pick a good digging bot such as bf as you tag like they said

[Satoshi]

What if the other guy goes random?  Or has Nak as his tag in a tag game?

[GujuSol]

score, just rely on your teammates, OR pick grub as your tag. :dualevil2:  :dualevil1:

when he finses diggin, roll those sukers in there and watch him suffer. for best effect, use shovel or shoot thru a force. but the bottom line is, nak is stong against lightning, and there is no way lightning can beat a tunneling nak. personally i hate tunneling, i think its a bit underhanded, but if I'm desperate, especilly against an asate, ill tunell whit tricos shot 2 as well.  

[Zannion]

I'm still on Thor's hammer so thats why I can't teleport out of the hole unless item load has teleport. And Boomer is bionic...you have the heal advantage. For some of the scenarios.....hmm:

B=boomer
N=nak
/ or \= diagonal shot
[empty space]= hole
. = land

Wind ....<23
1.)
...........B.................  ..
.............................  ...
..........................N .....    he digs
..................................
..................................
..................................
..................................

2.)
...........B. ..............  ...
............... ............  ....
................ .......N   .....    you dig further and prevent    
.................. ...............    
..................................
..................................
..................................

3.)
.............  ..............  ...
..............  ............  ....
...............B  .....N   .....    Go down and dig much further
.................  ...............    
..................  ..............
....................  ............
..................................

4.)
.............  ..............  ...
..............  ............  ....
...............    ...  N   .....    Now, he can't shot 1 or shot 2 you
.................  ...............    but he'll try...now keep digging under
..................  ..............    and go below
....................     B ......
..................................

5.)
.............  ..............  ...
..............  ............  ....
...............    ...  N / \ .....    Now attack from the furthest point
.................  ........./.....    that he can climb down(thats why boomer)
..................  ......./......  
....................     B ......
..................................

6.)
.............  ..............  ...
..............  ............  ....
...............    ...      N....    Tries going down but due to poor movement
.................  ........./.....    cant do a thing...while boomer pummels
..................  ......./......  
....................     B ......
..................................

He'll then be able to come down using up his heals and well...your'e bionic and have more healing benefits. And the reason you'll win when he has heals....is that he has maybe only 1 dual.

For other winds just try hitting him diagonally...lets say......

........  ..................  ....
.........  ................  .....
..........  ......../.\N   ......    
............  ..../...............  Hell have a hard time hitting you with his shot 2
............. B/.................  Be sure to leave land before him
..................................  even if you hit it...you can stick to your holes left edge in     ..................................  here and shotgun

Now, if only i had a feel of GBWC...... :  

[Satoshi]

You're forgetting that the map may not be deep enough, the circumstances would rarely be exactly like that, etc..

But it's an alright "general" guide.

[DataSlycer]

Did you try to 'cut off' the area where he is headed?  This is where teleport is hand since you need to get far away enough to cut him off before he reaches the cut off area.  I had this situation once but I was able to beat the nak, forcing him to rely on shot 1 while I had pretty much messed up the area he was headed towards.  (to be honest, I lost many times with Lightning this way before I started to figure how to fight it with my knowledge of nak)

As a nak, I don't really like this method, not because its potential brokenness but because I hate relying on just underground shots without means of shooting up.  If I was to dig, it's be a trench, not a tunnel.

[Satoshi]

Actually, I hadn't thought too much of teleports.. That's genius.  Just teleport to where he started the dig.